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1999-01-19MINUTES - COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MEETING-JANUARY 19, 1999 The meeting was called to order at 7:35 p.m. Members present: Meisel, Hanus, Weycker, Brown and Ahrens (arrived 7:40 p.m.). Also Present: Ed Shukle, City Manager. City_ Council Seating Mayor Meisel requested that the seating arrangement at the Council table be changed. She indicated that she has received comments from citizens regarding consistent talking between Ahrens and Hanus during Council meetings. Ahrens indicated she did not want to move. She said if Hanus wants to move, that's fine. Mark asked if there were truly residents who have observed this. Meisel indicated again that there were. Mark indicated that he preferred to stay where he was because he liked being seated next to John Dean, City Attorney as he frequently will ask questions of the Attorney during the meeting. Brown: Being's we're on this, I had three people after the council meeting concerned, I'm not pointing fingers but twice or three times [addressing Leah Weycker] you got up while things were going on you were handing notes to John [John Dean, City_ Attorney]. Weycker: No, I don't believe that. Brown: You want to look at the tape? Weycker: Sure. I've looked at it many times. I got up once and handed a note to John. Brown: Twice. Weycker: No, once. Brown: And it was brought up to me by two people. You know, can we turn that off [referring to tape recorder and asking Ed Shukle, City_ Manager! for a minute? Shukle: No, you can't. It's a public meeting. Weycker: Absolutely not. It's a public meeting. Brown: You...You get... Whenever somebody says anything to you, you immediately take it as a personal front or offense and you jump right back... Weycker: You know, Bob, the tone of that last meeting was very_ personal again.qt me. Brown: I didn't say anything... Weycker: And I think I deserve a personal.apology from Mark. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 2 Brown: Excuse me, I think I had the floor. And I don't think I said it anything here. But I had the two people say 'What's the councilmember handing notes while we're talking' to John, twice,' they said. I didn't notice it. But it was brought up to me afterwards wanting to know what was going on our side. And I don't think I said it abruptly to you or anything like that. I brought it up just like they [Andrea and Mark] were brought up about their whispering. These are things that are happening and I was just making you aware of them. And immediately, you took it as a personal attack. I have nothing personal against anybody. Weycker: Bob, you said two or three times 'you got up.' I know, for a fact, I got up once and handed John a note. Brown: O.k .... Weycker: So it gets bigeer, it gets exaggerated. Brown: You get awful.., you get awful defensive ant, immediately take an attack position. Weycker: Yes, I do. After the tone of the last meeting, I am vel'y defensive. Very_. And until I see the tone change, I will continue to be defensive. Brown: And you're going to be on the outside looking in. Weycker: That's fine, Bob. If you want to play that game. You play that game. Brown: I'm not playing no games. I'm _iust saying... Weycker: No, it is a game. Brown: It's nice.., it's not a game. I didn't have nothing to do with that last meeting. with you. I didn't say one thing bad about you or anything. And I did not say anvthine bad to... Weycker: I didn't say you did. The tone of the whole meeting... Brown: Well, you just told me I was playin~ games, Leah. And I'm not playing games. I haven't said a word to you. I said it politely tonight. I was bringing something to a point, and immediately, you want to attack. And I'm not goine to do that. I'm not going to let anybody attack me...for just beine COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 3 Weycker: Nor will I. Brown: ... a comment. On trying to get together with somebody a-nd pointing out something. If you don't like the way I point it out, then say, 'Bob, hey you're wrong.' We¥cker: I didn't say that. Brown: And I may be wrong. Weycker: I said,'Bob, I got up once.' Would you like to know what was in the note I passed to John Dean? Brown: Meisel: Brown: Hanus: No. I don't care. I could care less. But citizens brought it up to me that we were doing things... Notes. Notes. Maybe, maybe, maybe collectively, we all have to be a little more cognizant of, of, of that. Let's just try and do that for a little while and see if we can't check that a bit. Meisel: One of the things, as I stated with the facilitator, we are not on the same page. It appears we aren't going to be working together well, and I don't want to start out that way. And some of it with the first meeting is I should have been stronger, and stopped some of it. So, I'm |ust as guilty_. And the offset to it is I also think we need to hash it out or we're never going to get over it. Weycker: I... I totally agree, Pat. And I will tell all of you fight now I will not sit on this Council if that kind of behavior continues. I think it is very unprofessional and inappropriate. And, I will not be here if that's the case. Meisel: I'm sorry if you felt attacked, Leah. I felt bad at the end of the meeting. But I also have the vote the way I did. But I didn't go home and call any citizens either so that I was getting calls at 8:30 in the morning. I usually go to the person directly if I don't like what happened. Weycker: I received calls from those citizens constantly for over a year asking to be informed about these issues, as well as these people [referring to Andrea and COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 4 Mark]. They know exactly what was going on. The fact that they were not informed of we vote on it, I had every_ right to call them. That's why... Meisel: I'm not telling you not to call them. What I'm telling you is, the attack that proceeded from it. And, that's fine, I can hold my ground. I don't have a problem with it. But, I also don't want to spend the next two years second guessing if I'm going to get calls from the residents because somebody scooted out of a council meeting immediately to make a telephone call. 'Do you know Pat did?' And that's the way it felt. Weycker: I think you're assuming that's what the conversation was. That wasn't the conversation. The conversation was your docks got moved at the city_ council meeting. Meisel: Hanus: But did you go on to explain the why? But, who did you tell that to? Weycker: The why? Meisel: As far as... I explained why I voted the way I did. And I think Mark explained why he made the motion for it, and we all went forWard. And I re-explained where my intention was. Weycker: You know the whole issue... Meisel: Which went out the window. Weycker: ... is so much bigger, though, than Mark presented, I... I don't think it was presented properly. I think there was a lot of misleading things that Mark presented. My note to John Dean happened to be about Andrea who had been advised that if she talked about these issues or voted on them, was a direct conflict of interest. She broke the law sitting up there, according to me. Brown: But, see.., this is exactly what I am saying. Weycker: He said he had to check into it because he didn't know where the docks got Ahrens: moved. I have.., now... I...let's be fair. I have never stepped down from voting on any of those issues because I said I would be breaking the law. Never. You better COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 5 go back and check all the tapes. Because I've never said that. Weycker: I didn't say you did say that. Ahrens: I voluntarily removed myself from discussion. Weycker: I said you've been advised... Brown: See, this is a situation... Ahrens: I have been... Brown: Madame Mayor, this is a situation of what exactly I'm talking about. And I feel; personally, that when you vote on something, or since just watching you lately, you're not voting for what's best. You're voting on an issue, and you're making it a personal thing and you take it personally whether it's.., if it's defeated, it's not that, well, maybe I was wrong on this one, because it's 4-1, and I may have to rethink the way I'm going on this. Or, maybe I have to make a little stronger case on the next issue to show that maybe I'm right on this and they need to rethink their position. You take it personally and you get vet upset and you go dog bite right at a person. You come right at them, you... you just get hostile and you just take it as a personal attack. And there was...maybe there was that night but, like tonight, there was no personal attack here, to you, when I said what I did. But, immediately, instead of saying 'well, Bob, he may be wrong on this,' you took it as a personal front and then you take it as a personal attack and you get really... Weycker: I do take it as a personal attack. Brown: That's not what were here for. Weycker: Like I said, the tone of the last meeting, I... I feel like I'm sitting in the same meetin~ right now. Brown: Whoa, we're here...for what's.., the five of us are here, well six of us, with Ed, we're here for one thing, not personal gain or a personal issue. I have no issue, here, on this council. I don't have a dock, I don't have a house, I got an apartment, that I re... own. So you gotta be here for one thing. What is best for my town? Weycker: Absolutely. Absolutely. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 6 Brown: And, I don't feel you feel that way. I feel you got an agenda that you're on, whether, and I'm going to say it, personally, whether it's the school or docks, and you take those two issues. Anything else that we might sffy to you, you think I'm personally attackin~ you because you believe... I'm glad you believe that strong about the school. And I'm glad you believe that.., people should believe about something. There's nothing worse than somebody that's lukewarm. Somebody that doesn't believe one way or the other or they're lukewarm on something· But if you believe wholeheartedly in it. then go for it. But don't take it as a personal attack on you. I don't think anybody here wants to attack you because you sit on the end of the bench about how you feel. I don't. I'm here to work with Pat and this council to make this town the best it can be. Weycker: Brown: Weveker: Brown: Weyc!ter: Brown: Weycker: And there are going to be times when I'm going to argue like crazy_ but at the end of the night, I'm going to walk out and say 'hey Mark, do you want to go out get a beer?' Or, 'you want to go get a beer?' After it's over with, I've lost or whatever.., that's the end of it. I don't take it home with me. Now, you've sat at this very_ table and called me a treehugger for sitting on the Park Commission. I was appointed that job. I call everybody a treehugger. Well, I take offense to that. Well, I'm sorry, then. I would apologize to you. ·.. and the Park Commission as well. I'!1 apologize to you. There is no personal issue with me and the schools. I don't even understand where that comment is coming from. Again, I sit on another commission called the WCCB and on the Building Committee that I was appointed to by this council. Had nothing to do with the schools. I had nothing to do with the schools, before that. This is all in my job that this has come about. And yes, I sat in here, I made the decisions and I strongly support that project. I... I have been working on it for the past two years. And I think I should, just like you said, I will strongly support it and I will stand by it. I'm not wishy washy at all on my opinions on things. And I don't find that you should criticize me for having.., having that opinion on things. And if you can't at~ree to argue the facts with me, I think that's what this council is all about, to debate the issues and discuss them, and if we're on different sides, to try and convince the other COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 7 side of what we're thinking, and if we can't, so be it and the vote comes down, one side wins, one side doesn't. And I have no problem with_being on the losing end of the vote. I have been for the past two years. It has nothing to do with a 4-1, it was a 2-3 last time. It doesn't matter that. I... I...and I didn't have Brown: Weycker: Brown: Weycker: Brown: Weycker: Hanus: Weycker: a problem before that first meetine of this year. I didn't have a problem. But you say that... That first meeting was very_ contentious and was personal. You say that and immediately when you say you don't mind that we should give the opinions but as soon as the opinions are given, you went right out and called the citizens and had somebody calling Pat. Absolutely and I think that's my job and I would do the same thing again. That's... They have called me several times. I got calls almost daily during the summer. Almost daily..Mr. Fackler was down there, almost daily this summer, I talked to those people. They have continually asked the city_ to be informed about these issues and here we are sitting up there as a council voting behind their back? I think that's reprehensible, to the public. I don't care if it had to do with dock.~ or a building permit, or a school, what it had to do with. You don't do that behind the public's back. I do work for the public. I don't know who you're working for. And...and...and... and...that opinion is fine. And that opinion is your opinion. And I don't for a minute believe we're voting behind the public's back. That was on the agenda. It's been on... it's been in the paper. And... and that issue, that dock location map, is done every_ year. And... and.., it's.., it's noticed every year. It's gone through the commission, it's gone now to the council. Voting on it when its noticed in the paper is not voting behind people's backs. So, my position on that issue is completely different than yours. That's the way it is. I will point out that these issues do go to our commissions first. The neighbors called me when this came up at the dock commission. Said 'do I need to be there?' I said 'I would be there if I were you.' They all showed up to the dock commission meeting. What were they told? We had it in our notes. They were told these issues will not be decided without the neighborhood input. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 8 They were told that at the dock commission meeting. What did we do? Hanus: We're giving the neighborhood input. We're letting them l~ake their decision. They're having... Weycker: Not a lot of incentive for the people to show up and even have this conversation with the neighborhood if they don't even show up, they still get exactly what they wanted. Ahrens: You know... I think... I think...that we could be on this one issue all night. Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: But I think one of the things that, uh~ and.., and Leah touched on it and... and.., and I think you did too, Bob, we are going to have different ideologies and different philosophies, and, you're right, we should argue the facts. I... I... I sat here for eight years on the short end of 4-1 votes for a long time. So, I understand what it's like to be there. But, when you have a different ideology, and I think my ideology, and I think even Mark's ideology, on this whole issue is a little different than yours. And... and.., and... I think the point that has been.., that you refuse to listen to, just let me finish this point so I could at least say that you heard what I said. You refuse to listen to the fact that there are two dock locations and they are in front of one individual's house. And why Gree Knutson, four houses down or Gretchen Smith five houses down, or anybody who lives on Three Points is affected and should have a say in where those two locations in front of one individual's house should be, I don't know. I don't know why you think that. And you haven't explained that to me. I can explain it if you would like me to explain it. Yeah, I would really love to hear a valid reason why they are affected. Because this is just one little issue of an ongoing thing that you keep, seem to keep bringing up to the neighborhood. It's not me. It's Mr. Smith. No. First, Andrea, first it was you, you planned or the dock commission planned to putting this multiple dock in front of these people's houses. That's what got them mad in the first place. No. It was in front of the road, the fire lane. A fifteen foot fire lane. But we are moving all the non-abutting docks from in COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 9 Ahrens: We¥cker: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Hanus: Weycker: Hanus: We¥cker: Hanus: Brown: Hanus: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: front of... There used to be one dock there, Leah. Now tell all the fac~-s correctly. No, that isn't correct, Andrea. Multiple with 20 slips. It was a straight dock. It was a multiple with one... I don't think so. You were moving Casey's dock~ Albrecht dock... It was a straight dock. It was a straight dock with 4 slips. With 4 slips. Okay... Four boats on one... Did Andrea say one dock? One dock with 4 boats on one. Leah, listen, listen. A straight dockwith 4 boats on it. That's what it was. Ed, isn't this kind of the plan I brought to you? Two on each side. We have lots of docks like that have. I mean, my dock is like that. It has one dock and it has 4 boats. Do you think the people that were on either side of that area had a right to say they didn't want it? The... the one gentleman... Do you think that Mr. Smith has a right to say where the docks should be in front of his house? This isn't in front of your house, Leah. And that's the point I'm making. You said this is just.., this little issue. This isn't. This is one issue, then it's a next issue, then it's a next issue. It has nothing to do with that multiple anymore. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 10 Weycker: Things keep coming up and the neighbors just don't trust what you guys are going to do with them. Because things keep getting put little_, little pieces at a time. Ahrens: O.k., well, finish your answer. What does Greg Knutson or somebody fifty houses down... Weycker: Nothing. I don't think they should have a say. Ahrens: ·..on Three Points have to do with Mark Smith? Weycker: I don't think they should have a say. I don't think they should have a say in it. Ahrens: O.k. Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. Weycker: What I'm saying is you just keep pushing these little things in front of them dangling in front of their nose, saying 'oh, now, we're going to do this, you you've told them to their faces 'just wait, I'll ~,et you.' What do you think? Ahrens: Mr. Smith figured that if the multiple was down on the end of the fire lane, the issue about where his dock was went away. But when that didn't happen, he said 'I would like to move my location. I have plenty of frontage in front of my house to move my location. Can I please do this?' I don't have a reason to tell him why he shouldn't be able to do that. Maybe you do. Maybe because it's important that somebody who lives 10 houses down doesn't like it. Hanus: But nobody has said what that... Ahrens: But, I don't understand this. That's why I don't understand. Weycker: Part of that issue was the sandbar that we heard about a million times... Ahrens: Weycker: But the sandbar is on the map... I should have brought the map tonight. I knew this was going to be an issue. Mark talked about that this only affecting two docks. It doesn't. Mack's are going to have to put in their dock in a different space. Maybe it doesn't affect their water area but they have always put it on the side of their water area because they say there is a sandbar. I don't know if there is a sandbar. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 11 Ahrens: Hanus: Ahrens: Hanus: Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Hanus: Brown: Meisel: Ahrens: Brown: Ahrens: Weycker: There is a sandbar and it is on the dock location map and it's a hundred feet from their house. Look on the map. _ And their neighbors are even closer to that point where the sandbar is... How far down are they? They have a boat and a lift there and they operate just fine and they're right in the middle of what's supposed to be a sandbar. They are on a sandbar. The Mack's are a hundred feet offofwhere that sandbar is supposed to be. The only reason they say there is a sandbar is because the dock location map identified one that goes all the way around that point. But that's not where there is a sandbar. If there is a sandbar, it's on the point. Not back in the cove. You don't have a sandbar in a cove. You can say that. They disagree with you. Who am I supposed to believe? Staff goes out there... It's marked on the map, it's marked on a map, with a legend, with a legend. Mark said there isn't one there that's an issue. Not in Mack's location. There's one the map, there isn't one in the water. Two different things. Something I can't understand. This dock issue. Gordy Swenson said never talk about dogs and docks, it will always get you in trouble. That's one reason that we voted to push it so we could get it settled. And that was my whole intent. It's been around too long. What's the problem? Why did you even raise this issue? Were you trying to start... Commons dock issue... It's ridiculous...waste so much on time on this. I agree. I agree. We spent all summer on this issue. And it was a huge waste of time. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 12 Meisel: But that's the one reason I voted the way I did last Tuesday. To get it moving. That's the reason I think you brought it up. Because when would we have heard? And from what Greg told me, we wouldn't have. Ahrens: He's never going to agree to this. And he's not affected. And that's what he needs to be told. It's none of your business, Mr. Knutson. It's five houses away Weycker: Brown: Weycker: Brown: Weycker: Brown: Weycker: Brown: Weycker: Brown: from you. Get real. Another issue...Andrea has continued to say you can't even cross the point in front of her house to even get to these other docks. So I'm sure that will be coming back up. So even all these docks down there are going to be a non-issue because you won't even be able to pass through there. That's the next plan. I know exactly where they are going with this... So what.., if that is an issue... Let me explain something to you, real quick. I actually have the floor but go ahead. I'm sorry_... That's o.k. If this is becoming such an issue that it causes this much heartburn, what's wrong, and you mentioned it, and I said now that's not a bad thought and I've already brought this up to Ed. If every_ person who has a dock that wants a dock. gets a dock, and we come off from dead end streets and we come off of fire lanes where there are room, and you put out a straight dock out a hundred feet, with multiples so people get their dock, and then we take this commons dock and this is going to be an issue and I know I shouldn't bring it up. But.. Those two people right there, I can guarantee you, are going to come in screaming... Hold on, fine but the thing is that this. What does that person rather have? Some people coming out to a dead end dock walking straight out or does he want the people walking across his property_ to get to the next property_, to get to the next property_... The person at that street end would say spread him out. But then, you're going to have the trash thrown on your property_ and the next COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 13 property_ and everything... If you come off from the end of fire lanes with multiple docks and you maintain them, you put them in by the city_, maintains them, LeTurners dock company puts that dock in, they take it out, the people get a dock, its maintained properly, it's everything you want for a dock, and we have what's called a police department here. O.k.? If Joe Smith, on this side of the dock, has got Tommy Jones down here in his 24 foot boat screaming and hollering at 2 a.m., he makes a phone call. The police come down, his dock permit is pulled. He no longer gets that dock or anything else. Weycker: They can do that today. Brown: Absolutely. So I don't understand, why when you say the people on both sides... Weycker: Of that street... Brown: On that street. They're going to have same amount of people crossing in front of their house to either side as they are walking straight out without any noise. And no hassle, and they're going to get a dock put out.., you don't know what this guy is going to put out in front of your house. He could put out junk which supposedly he can't but you never know. Why are we arguing about something? Weycker: It's sounds like a good plan, Bob, but you haven't sat here as long as I have and heard...when you propose things like that, people come out of the woodwork, screaming and yelling. Brown: You have to make them understand that they are getting something better than what they have. Weycker: They don't know, see... I don't think necessarily they are. Why should they take the brunt of the four people where normally these other people go and disappear? They're not sitting out right in front of their houses. Brown: Let me ask you something. If you got a dock in front of your house and I'm the guy that's got that commons dock and I got my 28 foot boat and every_ Friday and Saturday night I pull up to my dock and I party, would you like that? Weycker: No, I'd call the police if it was after 10 p.m. Probably violating the noise ordinance or... you shouldn't be doing those things no matter where you are. Brown: Exactly. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 14 Weycker: Even if you were on private lakeshore I'm sure your two neighbors on either side... Brown: This is what I'm saying. It's called being neighbors. Hanus: There is a bit of a difference between the two situations. If you are neighbors and you own lakeshore, you have to live next to each other. But someone who comes down into the neighborhood from across the street or up in the neighborhood somewhere, doesn't have to live in that neighborhood, and they don't have to work together. They can come in and do pretty_ much whatever they want. And it's a serious rub with some people in some areas that have to live there, have to clean up after them, have to maintain their area. I know that ordinances say that's not the way it's supposed to work but there are people who have to take care of other folks' area because they don't. And it's their backyard but they don't own it but let's face it, for all practicali .ty, it's their backyard. If they want it to look decent for their own guests and their own family, they have to maintain it. So, I mean, that's a big rub. And, some people are not treated terribly well down there. And, on either side actually. It can happen both ways. There is a bit of a distinction between privately owned lakeshore, where you have to live with the person living next to you. Weycker: I don't disagree with you at all. I think one issue that came up in our neighborhood, I was accused of letting our boat float free which I found incredible, like I intentionally would have done that and I said that the neighbor across the street had called me and said one of the ties is off your boat, Leah, and you should come and get it. I came, I didn't even use the access, because she called, she said come right through my yard, I came down through the yard, I tied it, Well, Denny Flack went ballistic:'See you expect we are supposed to watch your boat.' Hanus: There's always extremes... Weycker: When the garage is on my side of the street, and I see someone breaking into their garage. I can guarantee I'm going to call them too. So, it does work both ways. And I in no way thought she was required to call me and tell me that my boat tie was loose... We were neighbors... Like you say, there are extremes. Denny Flack happens to be the extreme in my old neighborhood. Brown: Well, the biggest thing I could suggest tonight, and it would stop a lot of this tension, is that we should all agree that we can disagree. But, personally, we are going to go head to head on a lot of things. Like I said, with my ex-wife, COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 15 we used to joke about it, we got mad and I called her some things I was proud I thought of, and she called me some things I wrote down, but we still lived with each other. So, I don't think anybody is here to hurt ~'nybodv else or... Weycker: I hope not. Brown: Slap anybody else around... But, hey, I got four years of winning and losing. I'm not going to keep score. When I walk out of here, I hope to be friends with everybody still and not take it home. I get an ulcer doing that. I've been there. Hanus: You do debate and you try_ and persuade people that aren't with you. I tried my hardest on the school...the WCCB... the community_ center deal to try_ and convince you of the positions that I argued and I didn't convince you. I don't know ifI feel that I failed or not...but I tried very hard because I suspected you were going to go the way you did. But, I mean, so we didn't agree so you vote your conscience and that's what we do. Meisel: That's what I would hope we all do, is vote the conscience because it is the one... _you know I don't know that you really... I found myself explaining why I was voting the way I was because I wanted people to understand where I was coming from. And, the same was true when you brought up the instance. I wasn't going to vote for the dock change. And, the more I thought about how long this has been goine on, what it's doing within the neighborhood, it was time to get it moving. Whether it was the correct way, I honestly can't tell you that but I still feel good about the way I voted because I wanted it to go forward. And I want it solved. And then I went back, I got the minutes and was doing my research on it to how we can it get it done, by March... Hanus: I think I heard there was a meeting scheduled on the 30th. Meisel: Yes. Hflnus: So, a meeting is going to happen. I don't know who is going to attend if it's going to be every_body on the list or if it's gonna be the directly affected people or not. Ahrens: Do you see what I was saying, though? is that I think when you raised this issue at the last meeting, after I had seen the letter, with 12 residences on this letter, when the two dock locations are in front of one individual's house how you... I looked at this and I went, now, I'm not in outer space but knowing the personality thin~s that are going on in the neiehborhood, you are never going COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 16 to get... Hflnus: Ahrens: Zero chance of success. I would bet my mortgage that you are never going to eet 12 people to al~ree to this. And it seems, in my mind, having people who live down the street, havine input into what is happening in front of my house, or somebody else's house, in my mind, doesn't make any sense. And until I hear what a good reason for me to be concerned about the docks in front of somebody's house on Three Points, I can't agree to that. I mean I just can't... I can't agree that we should send out a letter to 12 people. It doesn't make any sense. Hanus: Ahrens: Hanus: Brown: If there is only two of them, there is a chance. Albeit 12, forget it. But not with everybody. This thing is, it's as simple like I said. What we did, and I hope I can explain this.., we didn't do anything that can't be changed. What we did is we said we're going to take this, we're telling the people~ hey, you got until next Council meeting to either resolve this or we're going to do it for you. Plain and simple. Weycker: No, that is not what was voted on. Ahrens: Brown: We resolved it and we said if you've got a better solution... If you don't want to do something... Weycker: If you come up with something different than we decided, what we decided stands. Brown: If you can come up with something different, o.k., we'll hear it out. We'll figure it out. But, if you guys want to just areue and complain to each other, we've made a decision and the end of the next council meeting, this stands. You got a month, figure it out. You guys can't find something, it's like two little kids arguing, if you can't come to a conclusion, we'll make a decision for you. Hanus: That is our role. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 17 Brown: That's right. We¥cker: Not when we sat and told those people that they... Brown: Seven months... Weycker: No, you're wrong. You're wrong. This issue, this little issue of moving the docks, just came up recently. Like I said, this is just one of the little tiny issues that's been issued to death. So they know this isn't the real thing, they don't give a crap about those docks moving. That's not the issue. The issue is all of these little things built up. And we... Ahrens: Then I don't understand why they are complaining about it if they don't care. Weycker: Because they know that's not the end. They know, they know that _you will come up with another plan or another thing, like I said, blocking that access. They all know that's coming. I mean that started last year and I'm sure it will continue. The "cloud", I believe is the words that were used, the clouds, hanging over those dock sites. That's why. Mark acted like this guy just didn't bother putting his dock in. No, there was a cloud over the site, said by the City_ Council, by the city_ staff. That's why he couldn't put his dock in. He was willing to put a dock in, he wanted to put his dock in. Two abutters, Andrea and Smith, put theirs so close together, that he couldn't get that in. Brown: Time out. Weycker: That's what I mean. This is a much bigger issue than ~iust moving those docks. Ahrens: You mean my dock was centered on my location. Brown: Hold on. Ahrens: My dock was centered on my location. Smith's was not. Hanus: And that was discovered for the first time in years. It's what it's always been. But it was... Weycker: No one had the right to that other site. Hanus: Right. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 18 Ahrens: Hanus: Ahrens: Brown: Meisel: Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Hanus: Shukle: Hanus: Weycker: Hanus: That's right. Now it was discovered there's a problem... Now it became a problem. You're acting like we all conspired and tried to do this_.__~. But isn't that why we got a dock manager for? Yes. He is more than willing to go down there and do it. These guys didn't like what his solution was. Whose solution? Fackler. He said I'll go down there and make everyone center on their spots. And that wasn't good enough, either. It didn't work for Mr. Smith. And that's why he asked, ' give me a good reason why we can't change these.' And I'm still waiting to hear the good reason. If there's a good reason why we can't move these docks... We proposed that people, we, I, you, I don't know who it was. One of us proposed last summer that the docks be centered and we got racked up one side and down the other by Jim Fackler and others, don't you dare.., no, Jim said, people can float within their water space. He fought us tooth and nail on centering. One of us, proposed that we center them. No, that was no good. So when you say no, that was no good, that's coming from somewhere other than here. I think that was an application for the entire system, too. If I could adopt it... Trees, etc., could be dead center on the docks. Obviously, you have to have a provision that allows for the use of your site. If that means shifting it because of... if that means because of topograhy or an obstruction that you have to move it to get to a space, obviously you have to COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 19 allow to do that... Brown: If this guy, Mr. Jones, Mr. Smith, if where his dock is was ~ large rock, just a large rock, and he wanted to move his dock six feet over which happens to lines up on his light pole, would you have a complaint with that? Wevcker: No, that's the way the system works right now. Brown: If we make an exception for a rock being in the way, why can't the people, why can't they just agree that they're making a situation here, come up with a solution between the people it involves. And that's what I was saying. Why does the whole neighborhood have to get involved for two or three people that can't sit down and say, o.k... Weycker: Like I said earlier, that wasn't the issue. It is much bigger and ongoing from all.., this was just one little layer on top of the cake. Hanus: So the only real reason I'm hearing why it can't work, is because they figure there is going to be another step and another step. Can't we look at this and see does this make sense? That's what I've tried to do. Does this one thing make Wevcker: Hanus: Weycker: Hanus: Weycker: Hanus: sense? Maybe they'll leave something after it, maybe they won't. But the point is, does this make sense? If it does, why not do it? The only reason that I'm hearing contest about it, is the fear that there is going to be something else? And something else and something else. The reality_ that we know it's coming. But does this make sense? You're shutting off, you're shutting off common sense and open ideas because of a fear of the unknown or something else that might happen. Does this make sense or doesn't it? I think it does makes sense. I have no problem with what happened. Why don't we look for it? Because we told them that they would be able to have input. But they are going to have input. Weycker: No, they're not, Mark. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 20 Hanus: Weycker: Hanus: Ahrens: Weycker: Hanus: Ahrens: Hanus: Ahrens: Weycker: Ahrens: Weycker: Brown: Meisel: Brown: Yes, they are. You gave them a month... Should we cancel the meeting that was set up? ... and they never would have come up with a solution. Should we keep having people coming to every_ meeting for the next two years? If they didn't come up with a solution, it was set by the Council, then, staff would come in and solve it. Which, Fackler said, I will have everyone centered on their spot. That's the way it came down from last summer. And that's what we said. We will allow you guys to work... And that was his solution and that's exactly why Smith requests... It couldn't work because the reason that Mr. Smith was asking to have the thing changed is because his electrical source wasn't anywhere close to his location. That puts him close him close to his lot line and puts the inland person near his light pole. I don't know how far away they would be from it... One is on either end.., it just didn't make any sense. If you want to argue the situation, you have to know ali the facts. You absolutely have to know all the facts and I suggest that you get them... From when? Facts from when? Facts that go back to the 70s?.. Facts about the situation that you are trying to hear. Actually, Andrea had the docks moved back in the 70s. Now there moved back again. They _lust keep moving... Can I make a motion here? Yes. That we stop this discussion of this dock problem. This big of a deal, let's get together and re-discuss this issue. COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 21 Ahrens: Shukle: Ahrens: Brown: But we got a solution in case there's no solution at the meeting. So, it's like... I hate re-hashing the whole thine too. Just a clarification of rules here. We don't take motions on COW meetings. Meisel: We¥cker: Meisel: We¥cker: Meisel: Ahrens: Meisel: Ahrens: We can't take any formal action. You can suggest... I suggest that we don't bring this up and move on to another... Well, it's going to hit the fan again... It is... I also... I can guarantee that. Yeah. But I think it helps if we all know the facts. If we do all...if we're all workiny with the right set of facts, the right set of facts... Well, it goes back to being on the same page. Right. Following some discussion regarding the "tone" of the first meeting of the year and new term, the Council consensus was to keep the seating arrangement the same as it was for the January 12 meeting. Mayor Meisel was asked to monitor the frequency of conversations at the Council table between members and should the need arise, call for a change at a later date. Possible City_' Council/Staff Retreat Utilizing an Outside Facilitator Shukle asked if there was interest in having a city council/staffretreat using an outside facilitator for purposes of establishing goals and a strategic plan for the next 1-2 years. The Council was very interested and asked the city manager to contact some facilitators, review proposals and select a COW Minutes January 19, 1999 Page 22 person or finn. A date and location will be announced following the city manager's research. Meetings with Advisory Commissions to Establish Relationships, etc. Shukle indicated that this subject has been discussed before and asked if due to recent events, if the City Council would be interested in setting these meetings up with the various commissions. The Council thought this would be a good idea and suggested that such meetings be set once the retreat has occurred. In addition, material prepared by Councilmember Weycker for the Park and Open Space Commission in regards to their role as an advisory commission was briefly discussed. It was suggested that this material be customized to fit all of the advisory commissions. In addition, it was suggested that a review of the appointment/reappointment process regarding positions on the commissions be undertaken at a future COW meeting. Mound Visions Update Shukle reviewed the status of the Lost Lake Improvement Project, Auditor's Road Improvement Project and the Post Office Relocation and related development. Mayor Meisel stated her position related to her and her husband's involvement in the project. She indicated that she wanted to be up front and honest about what could possibly take place with regard to the Post Office development and related development that would be tied to Meisel's property on the west side of Commerce Blvd. She indicated that she and her husband may sell some property to a developer and remove themselves from the project or they may be partners in the project. Shukle explained the interest by the Post Office, TIF and related matters that the city would be getting involved in relating to the project. Meisel explained that she and her husband were in the process of interviewing prospective developers to find the right fit for the development. She further indicated that the developers that they had interviewed to that point seemed to be more interested in developing the property along the new Auditor's Road. Perhaps both areas will be within the same project but the first priority is to locate the new Post Office so that the Lost Lake Improvement Project can be completed within its time schedule. Report from 1/19/99 WCCB Meeting/Update on Westonka Community_ Center Meisel, Harms, Weycker and Shukle reported on the discussions held on January 19, 1999 at the WCCB meeting. They indicated that a special meeting of the WCCB will be held on Monday, Janu, ~ary 25, 1999, 7:30 p.m., Mound City Hall. Westonka School Board, City Council and Planning Commission will be present to review the existing renovation project, clarify issues and will identify the next steps to be taken with regard to this project. Minutes of the Committee of the Whole January 19, 1999 Page 23 Proposed Wara Development in Minnetrista - Southside of Saunders Lake Shukle indicated that this project is on hold by Minnetrista until the water connection issue with the City of Mound can be resolved. He also indicated that the previous City Council asked that the water and sewer connection issue be delayed until a resolution to the comPosting/recycling facility can be found. The Council consensus was to schedule a meeting with two representatives and related staff from Minnetrista and Mound. Meisel indicated she would serve in this capacity along with Councilmember Weycker. A meeting will be scheduled as soon as possible. Proposed Wara Development in Minnetrista - Northside of Saunders Lake Shukle reported on a concept plan being proposed to the City of Minnetrista by Wara Development. He indicated that a neighborhood meeting was scheduled for January 21, 1999. He further indicated that a resident had contacted him regarding this proposed development and had a number of concerns regarding access and egress, utilities and other related development issues. Shukle indicated that he will monitor the project as it progresses. Update on Minnetonka Boat Rental Shukle indicated that this matter is still ongoing. Appraisals are being conducted on adjacent properties for possible sale to the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) as well as the boat rental site. More information will be forwarded once the appraisals are completed. Minnehaha Creek Watershed District (MCWD) Vacancies Shukle reported that two vacancies are being advertised for the MCWD. Malcolm Reid and Pamela Blixt are up for appointment/reappointment; both incumbents wish to be reappointed. Area cities have endorsed three other candidates for the two positions. It was the consensus to send a letter to Hennepin County endorsing Charles Scott Thomas, Minnetrista; Warren McNeil, Deephaven; and Robert Rascop, Shorewood. City_ Council Photograph Consensus was to wait until Fall, 1999 to have the photograph taken. Newly Elected Officials Conference Shukle indicated that the new councilmembers had expressed interest in attending. Both Meisel and Brown asked the City Manager to register them for the February 26-27 conference in Plymouth. Minutes of the Committee of the Whole January 19, 1999 Page 24 New Councilmember Issues Hanus: -Transition for existing businesses to stay in Mound while redevelopment is to take place. Suggested meeting with businesses now regarding potential redevelopment/relocation issues. -Status of Island Park Hall. Brown: -City Councilmembers need to be more visible. More articles in the Laker on what is going on in the City. -Invite businesses for coffee/donuts twice per year at 7 a.m. to sit with City Council to discuss issues of concern. -Review of wages for parks/docks staff. Ideas for Web Site Hanus indicated he would like to see some linkages to businesses in Mound. In addition, the ability to download forms would be important at some future date. Also, Hanus would like continued downtown redevelopment promotions used on the Web site. Other Issues There were none. It was noted that the next COW meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, February 16, 1999, 7:30 p.m., Mound City Hall. One item already scheduled for the agenda is a brief presentation from the Hennepin County Assessor's Office regarding property valuation increases and what to expect during the April 21-22 Open Book meetings. Upon motion by Brown, seconded by Hanus and carried unanimously, the meeting was adjourned at 11:10 p.m. tfully submitted, city ~